Transcription – WCI – 316

INTRODUCTION

This is the White Coat Investor podcast where we help those who wear the white coat get a fair shake on Wall Street. We've been helping doctors and other high-income professionals stop doing dumb things with their money since 2011.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
This is White Coat Investor podcast number 316.

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All right, if you're watching this on YouTube, I'm wearing a tie. Yeah, I'm all dressed up. I'm actually recording this on tax day April 17th. I know it's not going to run for a while, but I had a presentation with University of South Florida students today. So, I thought I'd put on a tie for them and I've just left it on while recording. So if you wonder why I'm dressed up, that's the reason why.

WHAT DOES ROTH MEAN

All right, Roth. Who is Roth anyway? Roth is William, who was a senator and in 1997, somehow managed to get his name on a piece of legislation that introduced the Roth IRA. And so, it's not an acronym, it's somebody's name. Roth. That's where it comes from. Subsequently, a few years later, I think it was about 10 years later, you started being able to have Roth 401(k)s and 403(b)s. And all Roth means is tax free. Meaning you put after tax money, money that's already been taxed into the account and when it comes out, it doesn't get taxed again. It grows tax protected. When it comes out, it’s totally tax free no matter what you spend it on.

Now, like any other retirement account, it usually has rules. It's supposed to be for retirement. So if you take it out too early, you might have to pay a 10% penalty on it unless you meet one of the plethora of the exceptions there are to that penalty, including early retirement. Typically for 401(k)s and 403(b)s that's 55 and separated from the employer for IRAs, that's 59 and a half. But like I said, there's a long list of exceptions. Usually early retirement or a concern you might need the money early is not a good reason not to save inside a retirement account when you otherwise can.

For 2023, you can put in $6,500 into a Roth IRA. Most of us are having to do it indirectly via the backdoor Roth IRA process. You can do that for your spouse as well. They probably also have to do it through the backdoor Roth IRA process. If you're 50 plus, 50 or better, maybe that's the way to say it, it's $7,500. You can also, totally separate limit, you can put $22,500 into your Roth 401(k) or your Roth 403(b). If you're 50 plus, 50 or better, that's $30,000. And in fact, the total amount that can go into that account is also a little bit higher when you're 50 plus because that catch-up contribution is in addition to the 415(c) limit a.k.a. the $66,000 per unrelated employer retirement plan limit. If you're lucky enough to have a 457(b), there might also be a Roth option on that. Again, another $22,500 that you can put into that.

Our Secure Act 2.0 legislation has brought up all kinds of other Roth possibilities that are going to be coming down the pike. This includes Roth SEP IRAs, Roth Simple IRAs, and even Roth matching contributions for employers. Now, most of us are still trying to figure that out. If you're an employer or you're a retirement plan provider, you're still trying to figure this out and I don't even know if it's going to be done by the end of the year. I kind of thought we'd start seeing it by now, but I haven't seen anybody offering it yet. But it's supposed to be legal starting this year.

Anyway, lots of cool things you can do with Roth. One of the most difficult decisions is when you have the option where you can do tax deferred contributions or you can do Roth contributions. The rule of thumb is that you do tax deferred contributions during your peak earnings years and Roth contributions in other years, like when you're a resident or a fellow or that half a year after you come out to training or when you go on maternity leave or when you cut back later in your career and now you're working part-time. Those sorts of years you do Roth.

But there are lots of exceptions to this rule, one of which is being a super saver. If you're saving so much money that you're going to be in a higher tax bracket in retirement, you should be doing Roth savings now. Another exception is people that are expecting a big pension like a military member maybe. You're in a low tax bracket all the time you're in the military and then when you come out you have this other pension and you end up in a higher tax bracket. So, Roth contributions are right for almost all military members as well.

If you just expect a whole bunch of taxable income in retirement, maybe from a real estate empire you're building or something, they can also be a great option during your peak earning years, even though you're paying a lot of tax on getting that money in. But for everybody else, the rule of thumb is peak earnings years are for tax deferred contributions. Okay, what should we talk about? Let's do a correction. I screw up every now and then. It's true. I don't know everything about finance and I make mistakes. This one's more of a clarification than a correction though.

A reader, and this is Matt who writes in. And I appreciate this. I always appreciate getting corrected. It's harder to correct podcasts than it is blog posts. I can correct blog posts for most of you read them. Podcast is a little harder because your correction comes out a few weeks later. Matt says, “I love the podcast. Thanks for all you do. I'm writing concerning a correction I believe needs to be made. You recently aired a podcast episode on taxes in it. A caller asked about correcting a previously filed tax return for a late arriving 1099. In your response, you encourage the caller to file an amended tax return. My understanding is that a very similar, slightly different procedure called the superseding return is necessary.

In the superseding return encouragement of correction needs to be made prior to the filing deadline while an amended return occurs after the filing deadline. Practically speaking, there's very little difference between these two options using software. Most programs handle it automatically or of a checkbox that can be used to file in by hand. Writing a superseding return instead of amended return is sufficient. I'm not sure that anybody at the IRS actually cares about this difference, but at least in theory, a superseding return has some additional protections and options relative to an amended return.” Super interesting there. He links to a good blog post about it. We'll include that in the show notes if you want to check it out. But yeah, if you are doing it before the tax deadline, it's a superseding return, not an amended return.

ROTH SEP IRA CONVERSION QUESTION

All right, let's take a question about Roth SEP IRAs from Mark on the Speak Pipe.

Mark:
Hello, Dr. Dahle and friends. I’m a longtime listener, second time caller. I have a Roth SEP IRA conversion question. As per the Secure Act 2.0 and your recent White Coat Investor email summary of the act, in 2023 SEP IRA in plan conversions will seemingly be available. Although I'm intending to start an office 401(k) as I have employees for 2023, I have no longer contributed to the SEP IRA for 2023 at all. However, the $150,000 in this SEP IRA, I would like to convert either into an In-Plan Roth IRA or into the group 401(k) that is being started for this year so that I can finally contribute to the backdoor Roth IRA as well. Of course, I would prefer to convert to the In-Plan Roth IRA as the group 401(k) has a 0.15 % AUM. Are there other things I should be considering in this decision? Thank you very much.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
All right, good question. Well, 0.15% is not like some huge AUM fee. I wouldn't let that sway your decision so much. The real decision here is are you going to roll this in to the tax deferred part of your 401(k) and avoid taxation on it, or are you going to do a Roth conversion? Because there's a big tax cost. If you convert $150,000, you're probably paying $50,000 in taxes on that Roth conversion. So you've got to make sure that is really the right move for you. I think that's far more important than that 0.15% AUM fee.

Now, if that's 1.5% AUM, maybe I'd feel a little bit differently, but I think the big question here is when should you be paying your taxes? And that's hard to sort out if you're in peak earnings years. The rule of thumb is mostly not to do a Roth conversion at this time and I’d just rolled it into your 401(k). And that will also allow you to do the backdoor Roth IRA process each year.

If you really want to do the Roth conversion, you can do that in a lot of ways. You can take that money out of your SEP IRA into a Roth IRA. That would be a conversion, be a transfer and a conversion, or you could do it into this new plan or if your existing SEP IRA allows it, you could do In-Plan conversion. But I wouldn't hold my breath on the plan allowing that anytime soon. Everybody is still trying to figure out the rules on those. So, I hope that helps.

MARRIED FILING SEPARATELY – ROTH CONTRIBUTIONS QUESTION

All right, the next question is from Jonathan.

Jonathan:
Hi Dr. Dahle. My name is Jonathan and I'm a current Mercy medicine resident and my wife is a current general surgery resident and my question involves around the Roth IRA contribution. My wife and I are both on public service loan forgiveness and also on the PAYE repayment plan for our student loans. I have about $400,000 in student loans. My wife has about $300,000. So, we're having to file our taxes as married filing separately to do this payment program. I noticed on the Roth IRA contribution limit, the MAGI is zero to $10,000 if filing MFS. Does this mean that while we're filing MFS, my wife and I cannot have a Roth IRA account through Vanguard? I couldn't find any information on the IRS website besides the contribution limit for MFS filers. Does this mean that we can't have a Roth IRA account until we finish paying off our student loans and are able to file as married filing jointly? It's somewhat confusing. I don't understand that as both residents, her income is about $58,000, mine income is $58,000 that we would somehow be ineligible for having a Roth IRA account at this time. Thank you for your earlier help you do on giving physicians a fair shake.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
All right, Jonathan. I really appreciate you calling in. I really appreciate what you do. Being a resident is not easy. Being in residency is not easy. I know a general surgery residency is not easy. So, thanks to you guys for what you're doing. You guys are like poster children for studentloanadvice.com. This is this company we started to help people with their student loans, but you've got two docs thinking about filing MFS, trying to maximize their PSLF, both with differing amounts of student loans. You're perfect to actually hire somebody to help you run the numbers.

If you do not feel like you have a handle on this, this is totally worth whatever it is, $500 or $600 to pay a student loan specialist at studentloanadvice.com to really make sure you're doing your student loans right. The difference could be tens of thousands of dollars in additional forgiveness for you guys. So, consider that. They're actually doing a bonus this month. It ends on May 31st. I think this podcast drops on the 25th. So, you got six days. If you schedule a consult, and this is not just for you, this is for anybody. If you schedule a consult with studentloanadvice.com during May you get a free signed copy of the White Coat Investors Financial Bootcamp and that's me signing it. I'll sign it and we'll send it to you. So, consider doing that.

But here's how it works. I know it doesn't seem fair. You guys don't make that much money and all of a sudden you got to do backdoor Roth IRAs. That's crazy. Yes, that's the way it is. If you are filing married filing separately, you have to do your Roth IRA contribution indirectly. You have to do it through the backdoor Roth IRA process. If you don't do that, you're going to be re-characterizing that IRA contribution step. Sorry, that's just the way it is. I don't make the rules. But basically you phase out between zero and $10,000 of income when you're filing married filing separately. And we could speculate about all the reasons why that is, but it doesn't really matter. That's the way the rule is. So, if you want to do Roth IRAs get used to doing the back door Roth IRA like the rest of us. Don't worry, you'll have to do it soon anyway. That's just the way the system is set up. I hope that's helpful too.

Hey, speaking of help, we could use your help. Not these two docs. They can't help, they are residents. You have to be an attending or retiree to help with this and that's being a judge for the White Coat Investors scholarship. You can apply for that at [email protected]. Just put Volunteer Judge in the title. We'd love to have you. It's unpaid, yes, but it's not that much work. You got to read 10 essays that are a thousand words a piece and help us choose which ones I'm going to give $7,000 or so to.

I can't believe it's that time again. It is time to get speakers for WCICON24. I can't believe it. WCICON24 is next February in Orlando. It's going to be awesome. It's going to be so fun. You can come out the weekend before, go to Disney, the weekend after, go to Disney. It runs Monday through Thursday this year. But that's so you can make a trip of it. Bring somebody with you and have a great time in Florida. Great time to be in Florida.

But anyway, if you don't want to pay to come, if you want to come for free, you want me to pay you to come, be a speaker. We are accepting applications from May 15th through June 15th. That's it. After June 15th, we're kind of done with the speakers and we got to figure out who they are and put it all together and it takes months to do that. So, that's why we've got to do it so early.

You can apply at wcievents.com/speaker-application. And we like to bring back our people's favorite speakers. Yes, we have some repeat speakers but we also try to bring in new people every year and we'd love for you to be one of those. Here's the secret though. Here's the secret on how to be a speaker at WCICON. Apply for more than one talk because we may not need the talk you want to give. We may need something else. So, if you are capable, if you are knowledgeable enough to give multiple talks, please apply for multiple talks. You're far more likely to be selected as a speaker.

MOVING FUNDS TO VANGUARD QUESTION

All right, enough promotions crap. Let's answer your question. This podcast is supposed to be about you. All right, moving funds to Vanguard. Let’s see this one all about on the Speak Pipe.

Speaker:
My wife and I have Roth IRAs that were set up long ago by a friend with Thrivent. My wife also has a 403(b) from an old employer, which is less than $18,000. Out friend has left Thrivent and we are now interested in moving that money elsewhere. I've been following you for five years and I'm comfortable managing our finances. We have a brokerage account and individual 401(k) with Vanguard. I'm therefore interested in moving the money to Vanguard. Is there any reason to consider another company? My assumption is that we will need to create traditional and Roth IRA accounts for both myself and my spouse in order to do backdoor Roth conversions since our income is over the limit. Are there other things that we should consider? You have changed our lives tremendously and for that we're very thankful.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
All right. Should you use Vanguard? Well, I got a bunch of my money at Vanguard, so I'm going to go with yes, I think Vanguard is a good company. They have had some complaints about customer service. Vanguard has grown very quickly and that has required them to hire a lot of customer service agents, people to pick up the phone.

And Jack Bogel, the founder, he was a little bit like Sam Walton in that Sam Walton's of Walmart fame. I don't know what his quote was, but something like low prices or the priority or something like that. Low prices forever. Low prices always. Maybe that's the logo. It's a little bit like that at Vanguard. They want to keep your price down and that sometimes means you don't get quite as good customer service as you do at Fidelity or Schwab.

In my experience, it's always been good enough. And in fact, as I have built assets there and moved up into wealthier categories, I've found I get really good service now. I think it's fine to use Vanguard. All my kids' Roth IRAs are at Vanguard. All my kids' UTMAs are at Vanguard. Katie and I have our Roth IRAs there. We had a solo 401(k) there until we had employees. Now it's at Fidelity just because it worked out better for the people putting our 401(k) together. They don't have HSAs there. Our HSA is at Fidelity, but our taxable account with our trust and the one without our trust, that's all at Vanguard. So yeah, I think Vanguard's fine. You can open an account there.

One thing you need to watch out for, just from what you mentioned, I think you said your wife had a 401(k) or a 403(b) or something with $18,000 in there. Remember if you just roll that into a traditional IRA at Vanguard, that's going to cause you pro-rata problems with your backdoor Roth IRA process. So you got to figure out what you're going to do with that $18,000, whether you roll it into another retirement account for her or you convert it to a Roth IRA.

I think for $18,000 I'd probably convert it and just pay the $6,000 tax, but that means you got to have $6,000 sitting around to do that with. But be aware of that. Otherwise it's fine. Vanguard's good. If you really don't like them, you can check out Schwab or Fidelity. Those are other good options. I would not feel bad at all about having all of my assets at either of those places. But I am still a Vanguard fan and I honestly think the customer service is getting better, but that might just be a reflection of the people that are helping me now that I have a little bit more assets there.

ROTH CONTRIBUTIONS IN A 401(K) VS BACKDOOR ROTH QUESTION

Okay, the next question is from Monica.

Monica:
Hello Jim and the WCI team and thank you for all you do. I'm an anesthesiologist working for a large hospital system in a community hospital outside of New York City and I have a question about Roth contributions in a 401(k) versus backdoor Roths. Prior to working for this large hospital system, I was employed by a small private practice that was subsequently acquired. They closed their 401(k) and it was rolled into an IRA and it has about $30,000 in it.

My new employer both allows me to roll this IRA into my 401(k) and offers Roth contributions within my 401(k). The retirement advisor for our service lines says she recommends making 50 to 100% of my contributions as Roth in my 401(k) and then putting $6,000 a year into my traditional IRA as she thinks the backdoor Roth is going to be faced out and tax rates are likely to increase in the future. My accountant who is also a tax lawyer advices against this because it will increase my taxable income but did say there is no particular threshold we would breach if I max out my 401(k) with Roth contributions. My husband is also a physician and we're both relatively early in our careers. Him about six years out and me about two. Do you think the backdoor Roth is going away? Is there any advantage to keeping this IRA or should I roll it into my 401(k)? Are there any other factors I should consider when I'm thinking about making Roth contributions to my 401(k)? Thank you.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Monica, you're really well spoken. You sure you don't want to come speak at WCICON24? Directions were earlier in the podcast, but you should check that out. You sound like you're a really good public speaker. The answer to your question is that I don't know what the right answer is for you. Whether you should do Roth contributions or tax-deferred contributions is a very difficult question. There are a lot of factors that go into it. Some of which are unknown, some of which are unknowable such as future tax rates.

But the rule of thumb still applies. In your peak earnings years, especially if you're a two doc couple, in your peak earnings years, tax deferred contributions are almost always the answer. Unless you guys are super savers and you're just saving like crazy, you're going to have so much wealth in retirement, you're going to be in the top tax bracket for the rest of your life, that's probably the right answer for you.

Now that would align with your tax advisor. It wouldn't align with the advisor attached to that plan. But this is not something where the answer is the same for everybody because tax rates are going up, everybody should do Roth. That is not the answer. That's wrong. That is not the case. Even if tax rates went up 3%, 4%, 5%, each bracket went up that much higher, which would be a heck of a tax raise, it still might be the right answer for you to have done tax deferred contributions now at 32% because later you might be taking them out at 26% or something, even with higher tax rates. And so, it's not as simple as that person associated with the 401(k) makes it.

Would I keep money in an IRA? No, you can't keep money in an IRA and do backdoor Roth IRAs. It's got to go somewhere. You either need to convert it to a Roth IRA or you need to roll it into a 401(k) or 403(b)s. So, keeping it sitting around in an IRA is not a great idea. But as far as the mix of what to do for your Roth versus tax deferred 401(k) or 403(b) contributions, that's much harder question to answer. And if you're just not sure, split the difference, put half in each. Now I've got one of my partners, that's what he's been doing his whole career. He's like, “I just don't know.” Okay, well, that approach will work. One of those will be wrong. I can't tell you which one though.

But I've done it wrong in the past. I made tax deferred contributions when I should have been making Roth contributions just because I didn't know the future. I didn't know I was going to be a little wealthier than I thought. I didn't know that I was going to have a higher income than I thought. I should have done some Roth conversions maybe in the past when I didn't. Those sorts of things that come up. But it's okay. If you end up choosing wrong, let's say you do tax deferred contributions and you should have done Roth. Well, the circumstances that will cause that to be wrong are such that they're total first world problems. You're like, “Oh, I have so much money I have to pay so much in taxes.” That's the sort of thing that happens that makes it end up being wrong.

Now going the opposite way, if you do a Roth conversion or a Roth contribution, it turns out you should have done tax deferred, that might cost you a little more even if you don't have as much money as you thought you were going to have. But for the most part, that's not what people are worried about. So, do the best you can trying to figure it out. I've got a great blog post on it. It's called Roth versus Tax Deferred 401(k) Contributions or something like that. Let's see, I’m putting it into my computer here. Roth versus Traditional 401(k) Contributions. It goes through all the factors that affect it. You can think about which ones affect you and that'll help you make a decision.

But I hope that's helpful to you. I wish it was as cut and dry as just tell you always do Roth as some radio personalities and obviously your advisor in that plan, they try to dumb it down to people, but it's not that simple. Einstein said “Make things as simple as possible but not simpler.” Well, that's making it simpler. This is a hard question. You don't always get it right. That's a good problem to have.

QUOTE OF THE DAY

The quote of the day today comes from our friend Michelle Singletary. She's been a speaker at WCICON before, the first one of these we had in Arizona. She was one of the keynote speakers. She said “To increase my wealth I had to decrease my wants.” Lot of truth to that.

ROTH CONVERSION AND TAXES QUESTION

Okay, the next question is Jason on the Speak Pipe.

Jason:
Hi Jim. Thank you so much for all that you folks do. My question is when are Roth conversion taxes calculated and assessed. I lived in a state with no income tax and had deferred compensation, which was all pre-tax contributions totaling $15,000. I then moved to another state where I currently reside and initiated a rollover to a Roth IRA with Vanguard and the money is currently sitting in a rollover IRA brokerage account at Vanguard and I've not done anything with it. The state I currently live in has state income tax, however, in two months I am returning to that initial state that has no state income tax at all and I will be permanently living there. I'm trying to avoid a tax bomb and having to pay state income tax and federal income tax by rolling over the money right now. So, it's sitting there in that rollover IRA account. What I'm trying to figure out is if I roll the money over when I return there in two months permanently, if the state will still want income tax if I do it this year, or do I need to wait until next year and then roll the money over? So, it's really kind of a tax question and a state tax question and how to avoid that.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
This is a great question. Here's the truth of the matter. I don't think anybody's looking that close. State tax commissions are overworked and underpaid and under-regulated and aren't watching all that closely. I think you can probably do this in a way that is advantageous to you without anybody ever noticing. I guess the technical answer is wherever you live and file tax is when you do the conversion is where you need to pay taxes on that. I would probably wait until you are not living in that state with the state income tax before doing the Roth conversion. It sounds like you're only have to wait a couple of months, no big deal. So I'd probably do that.

Now if you are filing as a resident of that state, well, I guess you won't be filing as a resident of that state with no tax income. So all you're going to be filing it sounds like to me is a non-resident return in one state. At least that's what you're hoping for, right? And you're trying to say all your other income that you don't have to attribute to that state is in the state tax free. State Texas or Nevada or Alaska or whatever that is. That's how I would try to set up my taxes. So I’d pay as little in taxes as possible.

But if I was worried about an audit and somebody going, “Hey, this Roth conversion”, a state tax audit, which was even more rare than a federal tax audit, but them saying, “Oh that's Illinois source income. You got to pay taxes on that.” Well, you can say the date was this day, that day I was living in this state. Here's the receipts that show it. That's not Illinois source income, it's Nevada source income. And so, I think that's about as far as I'd take it. I'm not getting the impression you're going to have to file as a resident in any state, but if that's not the case, then you may want to wait until next year when you're not filing as a resident there. That might make it a little more clear, but the timing of how you're filing in that state is not clear to me exactly.

BACKDOOR ROTH IRA QUESTION

Okay, let's take a question from Greg.

Greg:
Hi Dr. Dahle. Thank you for all that you do. I had a question about the backdoor Roth IRA. I have two jobs. One is a full-time employee and the other as an independent contractor. My employer does not have a 401(k) plan that allows for a mega backdoor Roth IRA. So I was interested in getting my own 401(k) plan that allows for one. The majority of my income is from my W2 employee income. I make about $40,000 annually as a 1099 independent contractor. My question is would I only be limited to put in my $40,000 per year contractor income into my own 401(k) plan or can I use some of my employee W2 income to max out the after tax contributions in my 401(k) plan to the $66,000 limit? Thank you.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
No Greg, thank you for what you do. You're clearly working hard. You've got these two incomes. Doctoring is tough and all of you out there who had a rough day today, who had a patient die on you or some sort of terrible outcome or somebody yelled at you or whatever, if nobody said thanks today for what you're doing, I know you have a difficult job and I appreciate it.

Greg, money is fungible but it is not that fungible. You cannot take money you make from your W2 job and use it to justify contributions into your self-employed retirement plan. Only the money you make as self-employed income can count toward that. However, if you're making $40,000 there, if you just get a regular SEP IRA or the employer contribution in a regular solo 401(k), you're only going to be able to put in about $8,000. But if you go to whitecoatinvestor.com/retirementaccounts and you go to one of those self-directed solo 401(k) providers and they set you up a customized plan that will allow you to make mega backdoor Roth IRA contributions, you can put all $40,000 in there as a mega backdoor Roth IRA contribution.

So it's up to you. You can have $8,000 in a tax deferred account and pay some taxes and put the rest in your taxable account or spend it or you can stick it all into a Roth account and pay a little bit in fees to get that self-directed solo 401(k) set up and to maintain it each year. Fees usually aren't too bad. It's usually just a few hundred dollars a year. The choice is really yours but those are your options.

Okay, question about the backdoor Roth IRA. I wonder if we're getting close to the end of backdoor Roth IRA season. Starting about January 1st each year for about four months, I get three or four emails or comments on the blog asking me to help people with their form 8606 each year. So, I do sympathize with all of you accountants out there that have your tax season because here at WCI we have a backdoor Roth IRA season. It's got to the point where on the forums and the Facebook groups people are just like, “Here's the link, go figure it out.” But I'm still trying to answer your questions when you come to me with them. So, here's a backdoor Roth IRA question. Let's see if it's one I've never heard before. I'm hoping.

RECHARACTERIZE ROTH IRA

Speaker:
Hello Dr. Dahle. Thank you so much for all the things you do with your blog and podcast . They have been very helpful for me in my personal finance. I have a question about a backdoor Roth IRA. In 2022 filing taxes, I realized that I was contributing too much through normal Roth IRA so I had to withdraw, push it to recharacterize to IRA after tax and then move it, use the backdoor Roth IRA method. I was able to do that successfully at Vanguard and file taxes and everything is done. In 2023, I have received 1099-Rs because of the withdrawal from Roth IRA. And so, now what do I do with these distribution since it's all done in 2022 tax filing? Do I need to declare that again because that will be double taxation? I'm not sure what to do with these 2022 1099-Rs from Vanguard. Thank you for your guidance on this.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Okay. Well, I don't have a lot of information so I don't know if I can answer your question exactly, but let me talk for a bit and see if I can walk you through something that will be helpful to you. When you recharacterize a contribution, it is as though you made the original contribution to the other type of IRA account. If you're recharacterizing from Roth to traditional IRA as far as the IRS is concerned, you always made that contribution to the traditional IRA.

I cannot tell when you did your last Roth conversion, but if you did a Roth conversion in 2022 because this was a contribution for 2021 or whatever that you reported and you recharacterized in 2022 and then reconverted, well, that is a taxable event for 2022. So, that has to go on your 2022 form 8606, the one you're filing in April of 2023. And so, that's why you're getting 1099-Rs because you did something in 2022 that's making Vanguard say, “Oh, we should send this guy a 1099-R.”

Now you shouldn't get double taxed though. You shouldn't even be single taxed. The backdoor Roth IRA process, it should not incur any taxes. Maybe on a couple of bucks that it gained between contribution and conversion. But the whole point of the process is to get money into a Roth IRA without having to pay any sort of taxes on it other than the taxes you paid when you earned it. So, you shouldn't have had to pay taxes last year, you shouldn't have had to pay taxes this year. You just got to do the paperwork. You just got to put the paperwork into your TurboTax or onto your paper forms or give them to your tax preparer or whatever, to get your taxes done.

But basically you just got to put those 1099-Rs in and I'll bet I don't remember what the box is, 3b or whatever 5b 1099-R. Let me look at a 10 99 R here online. Sorry, it is 2b. There is a box labeled 2b – Taxable amount not determined. And most of the time when you get a 1099 from Vanguard about your backdoor Roth IRA, that box will be checked. So, you just got to remember when you enter this stuff in to your TurboTax or whatever that the taxable amount not determined, they really mean that. And you got to put that in as not taxable, meaning that you have basis, when you do the backdoor Roth IRA process. And so, you should not be taxed on this even though they sent you a 1099-R. When you're looking at your taxes, when you're looking at your form 8606, there shouldn't be an amount due on line 15c. There shouldn't be an amount due on line 18, at least not an amount like $6,000. If there's $3 there, that's fine. But if there's $6,000, you did something wrong. You need to go back and fix the form. I hope that's helpful.

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SIGN OFF

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And thanks for those of you leaving us reviews that helps others to find the podcast. We got a very kind one in from bradchandlercoaching. I guess he's some sort of a financial coach maybe.

He said, “What a great podcast. I recently started listening to The White Coat Investor podcast and it quickly became my go-to source for financial advice. The host, Dr. Jim Dahle, is a real asset to the show. His expertise and insight are invaluable, and he delivers the information in an easy to understand format.

The topics covered are so varied and relevant that I never get bored listening. From investing advice to personal finance, Dr. Dahle covers it all. He also interviews some amazing guests that bring even more value to the show. I would highly recommend the White Coat Investor podcast to anyone looking for sound financial advice no matter where they are in their journey. Five stars!”

Wow, that's a great review. Thank you for that.

All right, for the rest of you, keep your head up, your shoulders back. You've got this. We're here to help. See you next time on the White Investor podcast.

DISCLAIMER

The hosts of the White Coat Investor podcast are not licensed accountants, attorneys, or financial advisors. This podcast is for your entertainment and information only. It should not be considered professional or personalized financial advice. You should consult the appropriate professional for specific advice relating to your situation.

Transcription – MtoM – 119

INTRODUCTION

This is the White Coat Investor podcast Milestones to Millionaire – Celebrating stories of success along the journey to financial freedom.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
This is Milestones to Millionaire podcast number 119 – Opening a franchise.

This episode is sponsored by All Global Circle. If you have valuable knowledge, you can always use a little extra money. The All Global Circle community is set up to provide a clear, easy, and efficient means of communication between the pharmaceutical industry, the research industry, and those professionals who are using new developments and end products on an ongoing daily basis.

If All Global Circle can't get you a survey to take within 90 days, they'll pay you a loyalty bonus just for logging in and checking a couple of times per month. By signing up at whitecoatinvestor.com/global, you'll get an extra $50 just for being a member of the WCI community.

All right, welcome back to the podcast. I've been looking forward to talking to you. I spent the last two days in the ER and it was fun. I took care of a lot of great patients, usual hassles. One of the CT scanners was down, so we ended up being on divert for ambulances, which in some ways is a bad thing. We see fewer patients and obviously bring in less revenue when that happens.

In some ways it's a good thing. My partner let me go early and I got eight runs in with my wife at Solitude yesterday. And one of the great things living at the base of the Wasatch is that I don't have to jump on a plane to go skiing. I don't even really have to drive very far to go skiing. If I can work a day shift and still get eight runs in, that's an awfully cool thing to be able to do.

So, I love living here in the Wasatch. We are having a blockbuster snow year. I think it's actually the record. I don't think in recorded history we've ever had more snow in Utah, which is fantastic because we have been in a multi-year drought. My favorite lake, Lake Powell is down like 180 feet. It's like 22% full, this reservoir of the Colorado River. And so, this will go a long way to helping with that as well as the Great Salt Lake, which is also having some issues.

Hopefully the snow comes down slowly out of the mountains and doesn't flood out too many people. But at this point I'm like any form of precipitation and any amount at any time, we will take it. So, it's going to be a great year for rivers. Great year for lakes. It's been a great year for skiing. We love it.

GUEST INTERVIEW

All right, today we got a really cool interview you guys are going to enjoy, but after that, stick around. I'm going to talk a little bit about financial advisors and that's an important topic. I talked about it a lot when I first started the blog back in 2011. I feel like I don't talk about it as much these days, but we're going to hit it today for those of you on the podcast.

These milestones podcasts, we don't even do show notes for. This is just for you. It doesn't go on the blog. It's like a special little secret bit of information for you. Kind of like the monthly newsletters. Those don't go on the blog either. If you're not subscribed, you don't get them. If you want to subscribe, it's easy to do, it's totally free. Just go to whitecoatinvestor.com, go under the WCI Plus tab and you'll see a newsletter sign up. You can sign up there for those newsletters. And obviously, you know how to find these podcasts. But let's get into our interview here.

Our guests today on the Milestones to Millionaire podcast are Alex and Amanda. Welcome to the show.

Alex:
Thank you.

Amanda:
Hi, thank you.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Alex is an orthopedist. Amanda is a nurse anesthetist and that is cool and all, but the milestone they're coming on for is even cooler. Tell us what milestone we're celebrating today.

Alex:
I'll let my wife take the lead since she has kind of spearheading this endeavor for us.

Amanda:
We bought and started our first franchise.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
That's pretty exciting. And the fact that you're using First Franchise tells me you have plans to do more?

Amanda:
Yes.

Alex:
If it works out.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Okay. So Amanda, tell us about the franchise. What have you bought? What do you own? What is this business?

Amanda:
We bought a gutter company or the territory rights to open an already established gutter company in Louisville, Kentucky, where we live.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
You're talking about the gutters that you hang on the edge of your roof. Those gutters.

Amanda:
Very important as I've now discovered.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Cool. So tell us about the process. What did this take to become a franchisee? I guess you're a franchisee, right? What did this take to do?

Amanda:
Yeah. We actually heard from your podcast you had, I guess a franchise broker. I don't know if that's a formal term for it on your podcast. And so, we just looked into it and emailed and reached out to him and got in contact with him. And then he connected us with probably one of his associates and presented us with a bunch of different franchises that they were trying to expand anywhere from this company that would paint the lines in parking lots to a donut food truck to…

Alex:
Doggy daycare.

Amanda:
Or doggy daycare. It’s kind of just every little thing and they give you financials or just like a general financial overview of each and you kind of pick a couple that you're more interested in, then you take the next step and go from there and just kind of meet with more people and get deeper and deeper into a couple more. And then just kind of eliminate as you get deeper into the process and pick which ones you like the most. And we ended up on gutters.

Alex:
I think going about it that way with the broker is really nice. If you just try to pick an individual franchise, that franchise is going to try to sell you their business. If you go through a broker, like real estate, they're trying to sell you a house, but not necessarily each one particular house. So it's kind of nice that I felt like we had a better chance of impartial opinion. And he's obviously incentivized to sell something, but I felt like we might get a better match that way.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
All right. Well, I've got two “why” questions. And the first one is, why did you want to open a franchise in the first place? You're an orthopedist, she is a nurse anesthetist. You guys have a good income. There's no doubt that you have the capability to earn a lot of money by trading time for money. Why did you decide to open a franchise?

Alex:
I think we like to pretend that we're business savvy as we kind of navigate our early attending hood. I'm out four and a half years. She's not even out a full year. And so, I went into private practice and we've got real estate that we own and MRI, PT, all that kind of stuff. I've enjoyed that aspect of it. I do some consulting work on the side. I've done that. I've been more interested in business ownership. And my wife actually came to our relationship having partial ownership of two houses and was in like real estate. We were always going to do something just because we like kind of the next thing. We like staying involved and new challenges and we thought it would be real estate. And then when we kind of brought this idea to each other about the franchise, we didn't know where it was going to go. But here we're with one and we're hoping it goes well.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Okay, second question, and I don't know, maybe this one's better for you Amanda. Why gutters instead of doggy daycare or something else? What was it about this gutter franchise that you liked?

Amanda:
I think mostly off the bat, right away we just felt really supported by that company. We literally don't know anything about business in terms of franchising. We have a little bit of knowledge, but we're pretty green going in and they just seemed like they had the most support in terms of they basically gave you the tools and they gave you the design and layout and said “If you just follow this plan or what we've seen with other franchises that we've already done across the country, you should be successful and we'll help you through that.” And so, that's kind of really what I needed.

There was a couple of their franchises that were just like “Buy this and do that and then you'll be good.” And I'm just like, I'm going to need a little more than that. I don’t know what I'm doing.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
So, what are you doing? Looking at houses and putting gutters up on houses? What are you actually doing in the franchise?

Amanda:
I hired a general manager. He is a younger guy, really hungry. That's kind of what I was looking for is someone that wanted to build something with us. That was really important. And they kept telling us there's semi absentee models and other franchises that they have. I went to training a few weeks ago in New York and another nurse in that had bought a franchise in Illinois. And other physicians had these, so they did a semi absentee model.

I hired a GM to kind of help me and we've been working together just getting licensing and getting trucks wrapped and just little things here and there. And now he's kind of just out in the field and doing that. I went to training so I learned how to do it and installed gutters. When I picked up a hacksaw to try to cut one of the gutters, everyone kind of looked at me like… I was like, “What? I got to know how to do this. I'm not just going to sit here and watch.” And so I don’t know, I've just kind of been helping now with what he needs because he's kind of just taking this into his own hands, which has been awesome and really we couldn't do it any other way with our jobs.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
So what is keeping him from just doing it all himself? He just didn't have the cash and you were able to bring the cash to bear or does he also lack some of the business expertise that you've picked up along the way?

Amanda:
I think a little bit of both. He's fresh out of college. He's in the military and he worked with aircraft sheet metals, so he's very familiar. That's what gutters are, is sheet metals. He did that with aircrafts and so he had a little bit of knowledge at least in sheet metal and he's more of a blue collar, kind of hands-on, really good with his hands. And I really respected the trades more and more as I get into this. It's like, yeah, anesthesia school was hard and orthopedics training was very hard, but numbers and angles and measurements, it’s not easy.

I feel like a little bit overwhelming for how my brain works and I'm like, I really respect people that can do this. And so, he had that kind of thought process and was able to just understand how tools work and I have a little bit of that. My dad taught me how to tile bathrooms and do stuff with my rental properties, but it's still a lot.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Let's talk about the numbers a little bit. Can you tell us what you bought it for? How much that you used cash, how much you used debt, what kind of cash flow you're seeing back from it? Tell us what your experience has been financially with this business.

Alex:
I'm pretty debt averse. When we decided to do this, we decided that we weren't going to go into debt for this because if it goes under, I didn't want to have to write a check or worry about it. The initial purchase was for the territories. Louisville is made up of three territories in their model and we bought two of them with the right to buy the third one at the end of this year if we want to. That was $90,000 to buy those two territories. Then we had to hire the general manager at the beginning of the year, even though we didn't open until about two weeks ago. We had to pay his salary. We also had to buy a box truck, that's about $70,000. We had to buy a gutter machine, that’s about $15,000. We had to buy a sales truck or sales car to get it wrapped and that's about $15,000. So, all in, with salaries that we've currently paid, it's a little over $200,000.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
And no cash has flown back out of it yet it sounds like since you just opened a couple of weeks ago. But what do you expect out of your first year and maybe second year as far as profit that's coming to you for your investment?

Amanda:
Profit, first year, they've told us it's the race to three trucks. We have one truck right now, and as you scale, you need three trucks to actually see decent money. And so, if we're able to do that by the end of the year, they predict $40,000 to $50,000 and now that's considering an $80,000 salary of our general manager. So, if we didn't have him, , we'd see it a lot quicker, but then I think once you're kind of over your first year, it scales pretty quickly.

Alex:
Yeah. The goal would be somewhere in the… Their projections, not their lowest producing franchise, but also somewhere in the middle of $250,000, $300,000 profit to us.

Amanda:
Eventually.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
And that's what a success would look like to you. That would cause you to maybe do another one of these in a few years, even in a different field or something?

Alex:
Yeah, probably a different field. Yes.

Amanda:
Yeah.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
What would failure look like? How would you know to pull the plug and when would you pull the plug if this wasn't making some certain amount of money?

Amanda:
That's a good question. I don't think a hard number. We've already invested probably quarter of a million dollars into this. And so, like you said, we haven't taken out loans for it and it's not going to be life altering for us if we lose this money. But I don't know, we haven't really talked about that yet. We're kind of just waiting to see.

Alex:
I think we definitely want to get through summer.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Hopefully it’s not a question you got to deal with. We'll see, I guess.

Amanda:
I know.

Alex:
Yeah. This is not the busy time for gutters, but we have a similar amount of estimates right now as we had for opening day and we had marketing going on for about six weeks at that point. So, that's at least a good sign. And then watching those estimates turn into leads and jobs, that's where we're still trying to figure out, “Hey, where are we?” It's a little scary right now and we really don't know where we are. It's just so early on. But I think we at least want to get through the summer because that should be kind of the busier time and see where things look.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Awesome.

Amanda:
Yeah, I think they've said the hardest part is from one to two trucks. And so. if we're able to get from one to two, which would kind of be around summertime when that decision would kind of be made, if we're scaling appropriately, then I think from there we'd be a little bit more in the clear, if you will, in terms of it's a lot easier once you get that second truck because that's showing progress and growth in the appropriate revenue stream.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Yeah. Very cool. All right. So, there's somebody out there maybe they're just out of residency, maybe they're halfway through their career and they want to do something similar. What advice do you have for them?

Amanda:
I would say cash flow. We make enough money to begin with, and we didn't do this until we were pretty much debt free. We have a little bit still with just a piece of land that we bought to build a house on someday. But fresh out of residency, we wouldn't have even entertained this idea because you still had debt. I was still in school. I think you don't really know, you have to just take a risk. So you have to be comfortable with losing $250,000 potentially. That was our mindset. And coming out of residency that would've been way too stressful. Where now it's kind of like, “Well, we can still do what we want to do and it's not going to be that life altering.” It's going to sting a little bit, but it's not going to be that life altering. I would definitely say for fresh out of residency, just pay down your debts and then it makes this whole process a little bit more fun because it's not as stressful.

Alex:
Yeah.

Amanda:
If this is all you're kind of worrying about.

Alex:
Come out of training, like you say live like a resident as best you can, pay down the debt and learn your craft. You still don't know your craft coming out of residency. You got to learn how medicine is going to be in your hands. And once you get to a place where you are comfortable in your job, you are comfortable in your own shoes, if you like to think and if you like the next challenge, sometimes you just have to take that plunge, you have to take that leap of faith and gamble on yourself.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Awesome. Well, Amanda and Alex, thank you so much for being willing to come on the Milestones to Millionaire podcast and for sharing your experience and your wisdom and hopefully inspiring somebody else to maybe take the next step in their financial journey. So thank you for your time.

Amanda:
Yeah, thank you.

Alex:
Thank you.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
All right. I’m glad you enjoyed that interview. I thought it was pretty fun too. I love getting new milestones we've never had before. Some of the feedback we got in our survey this year was, “Oh, the milestones are all the same.” Well, they're not all the same. They're what you guys call in with. If you've got a unique milestone, apply. whitecoatinvestor.com/milestone.

What I love about this is that these two, number one, got their financial ducks in a row so that they could afford to take some business risk in their life. And number two, they just went and did it. Nobody was going to tell them they couldn't and because of that I think they're going to be successful. Maybe not as fast as they hope to be. Maybe it takes them till fall to get their second or their third truck or whatever instead of getting it done this summer. But I'll be surprised if those two aren't very, very successful and wealthy and we'll talk to them again in five or six years and they'll have a state tax problems probably.

FINANCE 101: FINANCIAL ADVISORS

All right, let's talk about financial advisors. There are three issues with financial advisors when it comes to interacting with White Coat Investors. And it's unfortunate because I think something like 80% of doctors and other high income professionals out there want and probably need to use a good financial advisor. But there's three problems.

The first one is that financial advisors are bad. They're calling themselves financial advisors, but they aren't actually financial advisors. They're salespeople in disguise most of the time or they're ignorant. They just don't understand finance. It's not that they're deliberately trying to hurt you, some of them are, but it's simply that they don't understand all the ins and outs. They don't understand not only the doctor specific stuff, but they don't understand the basics of finance.

I can't believe how many financial advisors are run into that think they can pick stocks well enough to beat the market or that are using actively managed mutual funds. The data on this stuff is very clear, number one. Number two, you can lower your risk as a financial advisor by using index funds. You've got a certain amount of fiduciary risk there if you're trying to beat the market. And so, while there's plenty of uninformed investors out there that think the role of a financial advisor is to beat the market, it's not actually what you should be doing. You need to be talking them out of that if you're a financial advisor.

So, that's problem number one is that most financial advisors just suck. They don't give good advice. The most important thing from a financial advisor is that you get good advice. Problem number two is that financial advisors charge too much and sometimes that's due to the way they're paid. Some are paid on commissions, which usually means you're getting bad advice because it's so conflicted even a good person can't overcome it. But the second most common method is an asset under management fee, which is fine if you have less than a million dollars. If you have more than a million dollars, you got $5 million, paying 1% of your assets under management is a ridiculous rip off. If you're paying your financial advisor $50,000 a year, I can find you somebody that's going to charge you 25% as much or less that's going to give you probably better advice. That's the second problem is people are just paying too much for financial advice.

And I can't blame the advisors. They're running a business like anybody else. You charge with the market will bear, but you're the market. So, don't bear too much. If you can get somebody that's going to do great investment management for you for $8,000 a year, why would you pay them $25,000 a year? You shouldn't. Same thing with the financial planning side. And often you're better off splitting those two things up. If you're paying more than a few thousand dollars for a financial plan, you're probably paying too much.

Typically the right price for financial advice is a four figure amount per year. It's going to be more than a thousand dollars. They're not going to be able to stay in business if they're not charging you at least that. It probably ought to be less than $10,000 unless you're in a particularly complicated situation or getting a particularly high volume of service from them. That's probably what about the most you ought to be looking to pay. Certainly by the time you're in the $20,000, $25,000, $30,000, $40,000, $50,000 range, you're paying too much. And a lot of people are doing that ignorantly because their portfolio grew over time and they just kept paying 1% of assets under management every year. Problem number one is bad advice. Problem number two is paying too much even for good advice. And problem number three is that White Coat Investors want everything in one person and there are very few financial advisors that offer every service you need.

For example, you may need a financial planner to help you draft up your financial plan, help you even create a budget, maybe help you manage student loans. And there's specialists in that as well. You've heard of Student Loan Advice that we talk about on here all the time, studentloanadvice.com, right? That's practically a specialty in and of itself. But beyond financial planning, you probably also want someone that's going to be an investment manager. They're going to manage your assets. And those are actually two separate things. Financial planning and asset management are not the same thing. Often people try to do both of those. And you know what usually happens is they give short shrift to financial planning. For some dumb reason, people are willing to pay more for investment management than they are for financial planning, even though the financial planning is probably more valuable.

But people also want advice on their taxes and maybe tax preparation as well. And they're like, “Oh, I can't get that from my financial planner too?” No, you can't. Most of the time you can't. You're going to need somebody else. And then for example, if they own a practice, maybe they want a 401(k) or other retirement plan for the practice. Well, that's another type of financial advisor. It's not the same people doing all these things. That's the other big disconnect is you got to know what services you actually want and hire somebody that's actually good at those services. And it may be that you need 2, 3, 4 different people to help you and all of them want to be paid. Even if you're just paying for tax preparation, by the time you have a complicated return, if you're filing in multiple states or you got a bunch of K-1s or something, you're doing a corporate return as well, you're going to be paying thousands just for tax preparation. That doesn't even really include much tax advice.

And then you add on $5,000 or $10,000 for investment management, maybe a few thousand for financial planning, now you're going to pay somebody for your practice retirement plan. You can spend quite a bit of money on financial advice. You can obviously see here that this is expensive stuff. We just got done doing our survey of White Coat Investors out there and we know most of you are making, your household income is only $250,000 to $500,000 somewhere in that range. So, if you're paying $15,000, $20,000, $25,000 for financial services every year, that's a huge chunk of your income. That's a huge chunk of your spending. Most of you are actually spending less than $200,000 a year. This could be like an eighth of your spending if you've got all those people. So, you can see the impetus to actually become financially literate. The more financially literate you are, the less you have to pay to other people to do these things for you. It's entirely possible for you to be your own financial planner. It is entirely possible for you to be your own investment manager.

I have done both of these for myself for my entire career. It is not undoable. Many White Coat Investors out there are doing it. You can file your own taxes and do your own tax strategizing. I did my own taxes for many, many years. Felt like a couple of years ago when I just couldn't figure out which states I had to file in for all my K-1s. And you've probably got your limit too. When your return gets so complicated, you'll decide to hire somebody else for it and that's okay, but realize that there's some money you can save there plus you'll learn a lot about your taxes. If you are self-employed, you don't have any employees, you can even handle your own retirement accounts. Opening up a solo 401(k) is not that hard. Even if you add on a personal defined benefit plan, it’s still a do-it-yourself project until you have employees. At that point, you really do need to hire a professional to assist with that.

But here's the deal. Financial advisors, it's a little bit of a love-hate relationship. Sometimes you do need them, but there's plenty amount there who are just ripping you off, giving bad advice, charging too much for advice. The more you learn how to do yourself, the better, whether you work with an advisor or whether you don't. The financial advisors on our recommended list, which you can check out and I highly recommend you do, whitecoatinvestor.com, go to the recommended tab, go down to Financial Advisors or just go directly to whitecoatinvestor.com/financial-advisors and you can see that list of people we recommend. But here's the deal. Even those people are going to charge you money and they give good advice and they charge a fair price or we don't put them on the list. But if you can do it yourself, you can save a lot of that. Just make sure you're doing it well yourself. You're far better off paying somebody thousands of dollars a year and having it done right and not doing it right. So, if there's any doubt on your ability to do it, get some help.

And there's people on there that offer all kinds of different services. Some of them are trying to help you be a do-it-yourselfer, some want to do it all. They want to be a full service person. That's the kind of client they're looking for. So you need to make sure you get a good match there. All right, I hope that's helpful to you. I hope you're enjoying these new kind of longer milestones podcasts. Send us some feedback whether you like them, whether you don't like them. We can cut them back to just the interview like they were before. But I keep getting lots of people asking, “Hey, we need more basics on the podcast. We need more specific topics on the podcast.” So, I'm trying to add some of those in to the Milestone podcasts and hope you enjoy those.

SPONSOR

The sponsor for this episode is All Global Circle. You have valuable knowledge, and you can always use a little extra money. The All Global Circle community is set up to provide a clear, easy, and efficient means of communication between the pharmaceutical industry, the research industry, and those professionals who are using new developments and end products on an ongoing daily basis.

If All Global Circle can't get you a survey to take within 90 days, they'll pay you a loyalty bonus just for logging in and checking a couple of times per month. By signing up at whitecoatinvestor.com/global, you'll get an extra $50 just for being a member of the WCI community.

All right, our show has come to an end. Keep your head up, shoulders back, you've got this. We're here to help. We'll see you next time on the Milestones to Millionaire podcast.

DISCLAIMER

The hosts of the White Coat Investor podcast are not licensed accountants, attorneys, or financial advisors. This podcast is for your entertainment and information only. It should not be considered professional or personalized financial advice. You should consult the appropriate professional for specific advice relating to your situation.