Intro:
This is the White Coat Investor podcast where we help those who wear the white coat get a fair shake on Wall Street. We've been helping doctors and other high-income professionals stop doing dumb things with their money since 2011.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
This is White Coat Investor podcast number 312.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
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Dr. Jim Dahle:
CompHealth created the locums industry, so they're the most experienced in helping physicians and other providers find the best fit. They understand you have unique lifestyles and needs. Medical careers are hardly one size fits all. Whether it's an assignment close to home, across the country, or across the globe, go to comphealth.com to find what's right for you.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
All right. Welcome to the podcast. If you've never listened to it before I hope you feel very welcome here and realize that this podcast is driven by you. We answer your questions on the podcast. We're not answering any of them today, but we do frequently. You can leave those on the SpeakPipe, whitecoatinvestor.com/speakpipe. Leave a message, we play the message on the podcast and answer your question. It works pretty well.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
But your feedback is also important. We want to hear about what you want on this podcast, whether you want a certain guest or whether you want a certain subject matter covered, shoot us an email, [email protected] and we'll get that done. If we're getting a ton of people telling us to cover this, we do it. So, it's driven by you very much.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Our quote of the day today is from David Swensen. He was the fellow who managed the Yale endowment portfolio for so long. He said, “Sensible investors rely on themselves. A strategy of professing ignorance and handing assets to a trained professional invites failure.” That's kind of an indictment of his own industry, but there's a lot of truth there.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Speaking of education and becoming smarter about this finance stuff, we try to encourage people out there to educate each other. Whether you're educating your students, your trainees, your peers, whatever, we want to reward those who are doing this fine work. I absolutely cannot get out there and give a talk at every residency, at every medical school in the country. I need other people out there doing it.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
So to encourage you to do that, we put together the Financial Educator Award. And if you know somebody that's been doing this great work, please, please, please nominate them. This is someone who's passionate about improving financial literacy among colleagues, trainees, students, etc. They're not a financial blogger or podcaster. They're not a financial professional. They're just a doc out there doing this for their peers.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
We want you to nominate them for the highly coveted 2023 Financial Educator of the Year Award. Not only do they get a nice certificate for that and something they can put on their CV, but we actually sent them cash. $1,000 prize is what it is. And that's not all. As an added incentive to you for crafting a compelling nomination, we're offering the nominator who writes the best submission for the winner, a free online course of their choice.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
So, where do you go to do this? You go to whitecoatinvestor.com/educator and just nominate them. Fill out a nomination. You have to do it by May 2nd, though, because this is coming right up.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
And by the way, on that same page, you will find slides, and they've been completely revamped by our fine Katie F, who does all kinds of our graphic design work here at White Coat Investor. And she has made the prettiest slides I've ever had.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
And so, if you need slides, there's a set for a presentation for attendings, a set for residents, a set for students, take them, use them, modify them as needed. And you've basically got a can presentation that you can give without too much effort.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
And honestly, this isn't that hard. Once you get to the Q&A at the end, you'll realize your peers have questions that you already know the answers to. You'd be surprised how easy it is to help educate your peers.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
But please nominate somebody who's been doing a great job at that. We've had some great winners in the past and we're looking forward to getting another winner this year.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
All right. We've got a great doc I met at WCICON23 that we're going to bring on and do an interview with today. So, let's get her on the line.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Our guest today on the White Coat Investor podcast is Dr. Brittne Halford. She's a clinical instructor at Beth Israel, but also a wealth coach. And I met her at the recent White Coat Investor conference in Arizona. And she also met a number of members of the WCI staff and dramatically impressed them to the point where they came to me and said, “You have to get this doc on the podcast. She's awesome.” So Dr. Halford, welcome to the White Coat Investor podcast.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
Thank you so much. I am so excited to be here.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Well, I'm looking forward to getting to know you a little bit better, and I know our audience, a lot of them may not know you either. So, let's kind of start at the beginning. Tell us a little bit about your upbringing and what it taught you about money.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
Great question. It's really interesting when I reflect on this now, being a physician and also a wealth coach about how I grew up and what it showed me. I am born and raised from Flint, Michigan. And I grew up in a single-parent household, but I had the benefit of having my father in my life. And I actually had this conversation with my mom today. She said, “Do you know that in 1997 she only made $700 every paycheck?” So it's about $1,400 a month.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
And I didn't feel the burden of that. I knew that money was power. That we didn't have a lot, but my mother and my grandmother were so resourceful that I didn't feel that burden of not having enough, even growing up in Flint, Michigan.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
And similarly, with my dad, he was an academic. Both of them would teach me a little bit about money. My mother would always do these mental math exercises with me. Say, “Well, you go to the store and you have $100. You're buying a shirt that costs $25. It's 25% off, how much are you going to pay? What are you going to get back?”

Dr. Brittne Halford:
And she would do the mental math at the cash register as the cashier is ringing things up. Mostly to make sure that she wasn't charged an inappropriate amount because money for her meant that it was hard to come by, it was earned, and that money had power.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
With my dad more so he taught me how to make meaning out of money, and meaning out of little. He was pursuing his master's degree when I don't even recall, maybe I was four or five. And he would make beans and hot dogs. So, not a gourmet meal. And his other favorite thing to cook was whatever is in the refrigerator stir fry. Meaning that he's not going to the grocery store to spend more money to purchase anything else. So we were going to make do with what we have.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
But even in that, I recall that we would study, he would give me my books, he would have his books, and we would have a can of Pringles, barbecue Pringles, and we would lick the seasoning off of the Pringles.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
And so, what that showed me is that you don't necessarily have to have money. Yes, money equates to power, you have to work hard for it. You earn money, but you can still make meaning and joy out of what you have. So, I'm really appreciative for those lessons that my parents taught me.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Yeah, it's interesting you mentioned whatever's in the fridge. And I've seen some crazy statistics about the amount of food the average household throws away. It's amazing how many hundreds and thousands of dollars of food that just goes bad in the fridge before we get around to eating it, because we're not good at planning meals and stuff. And there's probably quite a bit of frugal savings you can get from watching that more carefully.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
Definitely. Definitely. I find my lettuce is all withered usually, and I spend more time and energy because I don't eat it at the time in which I purchased it. And so, now I'm like sifting through trying to find the good leaves when I actually want to eat the salad. I don't adopt what my dad does as far as everything, whatever's in the refrigerator, stir fry. And definitely, a lot of food waste happens in this household as well, unfortunately.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Yeah. Yeah. Ours as well. All right. Well, at some point you left Flint and you went off to college and med school and residency and your career. Take us up till now from the time you left home.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
Yeah. I went to the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor. And gratefully so, when I was around 14, my dad sat me down and he said, “Listen, I don't have any money for you, for your education. I have enough to fulfil whatever said goal.” I think it was to get my hair done or maybe that I could go to the movies once a week or something like that. It was just a small amount that he could afford me while I was in college to support me.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
I knew at that time that it was on me and that it required me to do well in school and to apply for scholarships. I applied for a lot of scholarships. Now, when I think about everyone and how much we totaled at the end of high school, I was not the highest earner for scholarships, but I had enough to pay for most of my college education. And when I graduated from the University of Michigan, I had only $10,000 of student loan debt remaining, which was fantastic.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
I applied to be a resident assistant and was able to pay for room and board that way, was able to study abroad. And my mother again, she likes to hold on to things, let's just say. She showed me an essay that I had written when I was in college and why I wanted to study abroad. And I wrote the essay asking for funding for that study abroad semester. And so, I was really resourceful in that way and only had the $10,000 when I graduated from college.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
I also worked as a research assistant in a lab, and studied sickle cell. And from there I went on to medical school at Northwestern. Had also scholarships to help to fund that education. And when I graduated from there, I had $131,000 in student loan debt. I went on to do my residency in internal medicine at WashU in St. Louis. And there I started to learn about finances. That's when I met you.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Welcome to residency. That's when I started to learn about finances too.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
Maybe not you personally, but the White Coat Investor. I think what happens is that you get to this realization, especially me growing up in Flint, Michigan, and having this expectation of being a good steward of the high income more than anyone else in my family had ever earned. But also I was being charged with a high amount of debt and I didn't know what to do. My mother and my father, they were very frugal, raised me to be a saver. So, I knew that I could do that, but I didn't know what else. And I knew that it required more than that to build wealth, to build generational wealth.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
I did PSLF as everyone wants to do. And then started to get anxious. Once I graduated from residency, I paid it all off. And I started my position as a hospitalist at Emory University. I worked there for two years, and now we're in Boston. We relocated for my husband's fellowship, and I've been here for four years working at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center as a hospitalist. And recently acquired the position as the QI Director for hospital medicine.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Are you excited about being the QI Director? I know in my group, that's not the position everybody's fighting over.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
I actually love it. This week has been a little heavy, but what I love about medicine is that medicine provides us with the ability to discover, to really investigate, get down to the nitty-gritty, run all of these tests, test our assumptions. And I love that about medicine.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
But at a certain point you start to get a little tired and burned out and trying to weigh and balance how do I manage my household, being a mother, being a wife, and medicine, and then there's QI. QI provides me an exit to some degree, allows me to be creative and to still be an investigator of sorts, but also to test strategies to collaborate with others, which provides better patient safety.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
And I'm really excited for all that's to come with what we're doing. And not only just hospital medicine, but also hospital-to-home and the opportunities that will present for patient safety and quality improvement there.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
So yeah, there's some dirty work. You have to get your hands dirty. I love that. But also it allows me to be creative in which sometimes medicine I have to follow the guidelines, standards of practice. I can't really be as creative as I want.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Well, you've told us about one of your careers. I kind of want to hear about the other one too, which is how you ended up on the podcast and in this community. You also do some work as a wealth coach. Tell us about what got you interested in doing that.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
Yeah. When I paid off my student loan debt, I was on Instagram, which I’m really not a big social media person. However, I knew that this would be a way to share photos with my family who I don't see, and connect with others. And so, I started to share that I paid off my debt. And I didn't realize how rare that was. Yeah, I didn't.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
There's a certain oblivion I think that I have is I kind of like zone in and niche down to where I am in my environment. And sometimes I'm out of touch with the realities of what is happening at other people's lives and also their finances.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
I know statistically what it means for us to carry this burden of student loan debt, especially women, and that women are particularly vulnerable to these financial stressors. And then thinking about not only women carrying the largest burden of student loan debt, but women of color also carrying even a larger burden.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
And when I share my story, people started to ask, how are you doing that? I'm like, “Okay, well, clearly there's a need for more financial education.” And I was pulled into it. Someone said, “Hey, can you coach me? Can you help me with my finances?”

Dr. Brittne Halford:
And when that opportunity presents, then you can say no, but I did not want to say no to that opportunity because I knew that on the other side of that, that there was a major impact that would not only impact me and my family, but would impact the lives of others.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
So, I started the company More Joy More Wealth as a wealth coach for women in healthcare. And I educate and empower women to pay down their debts, to invest, and save with tailor made money strategies by focusing on joy.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
And joy is essential because we're tired, especially working in healthcare as mothers, as wives serving others. And sometimes we forget to serve ourselves. And so, I didn't want to tell women that you have to do everything to pay down this debt in order for you to, on the side of it when you're retired or tomorrow to experience life because we have delayed gratification for so long. And I also know from going up in Flint, Michigan, and losing too many family members too early that tomorrow is not promised.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
I started as a wealth coach and have been doing this since 2021. And I love it. I really love it. To present an opportunity to create space for women to have these conversations in which they can absolve themselves of the guilt. The guilt that they carry from not managing their money correctly, or a lot of the women who I coach are also mothers. The guilt that they carry from not being able to provide for their families sufficiently in the way that they actually desire.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
And once we are able to resolve them of that psychological cloud, then we get really strategic. And I teach them the fundamentals of finance. I teach them how to use their money to benefit them and to serve them and to make their money work harder for them than they do for it.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
And it allows me to also know that what I'm doing today, not only with a person's health and what I do in the hospital and how I improve patient safety and quality improvement on that perspective, but I'm influencing health in a different way.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
Because when women have more money, they're able to invest in better communities, better living situations, better education for their children, and all of that influences their health and the health of our community.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
It's really interesting, you mentioned mom guilt, and I think we've all heard of mom guilt, but you talk about it in two aspects that I don't think I've heard discussed before. The first one is feel bad about past money mistakes, which of course, we've all made in our financial lives.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
But the other one was also something that I suspect, I probably in the past at least, have seen more often with guys. This guilt of feeling like you're not providing very well. I think that's an important nuance that you've brought. It makes mom guilt that much worse. Now, it's not just feeling guilty about having to go to work, it's also not providing very well and having made mistakes. What do you tell people to help them get rid of that guilt?

Dr. Brittne Halford:
Well, it's individual, but I think one of the things that I do, that I work through with my clients is I have them reflect on their own money script and their own money background. And that has been imperative to understand who we are, what we value, the perspectives that we have, because they're all filtered through our lens of our upbringings.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
And I had a client recently when we were going through this exercise, she shared with me that her father, like you mentioned, was a provider. He worked a lot. And although he was frugal, whatever the children desired, he provided to them. And she adopted that same perspective of love, that, “Oh, I need to give my children whatever they want.” And by doing that, she racked up a lot of consumer debt.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
And so, one of the ways that we worked through that is for her to also reflect on some of the non-monetary moments of her upbringing, that she really valued. Some of those meaningful moments that she created with her father. And to dive down deep into the characteristic of that and to understand that she could still create those moments without providing her children with a gift. A new cell phone, a new computer, whatever it is that they want.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
And once we were able to shift that perspective, then she was able to understand that it's okay if I cannot buy them whatever. Fulfil every single desire because I'm still giving them love, nurturing, attention in a meaningful way.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
And that has been transformational for that individual client thinking about the desire to provide in a way that her father did and mitigating that with other ways in which she could build wealth. And knowing that by choosing to love them and not spending and not creating more debt, that she actually is providing better and more for them in the long run.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
So, it's just a shift of perspective, but there's a lot of money trauma that we all experience. And even for myself, going back and reflecting on my upbringing, I shared that money is power. And I do believe that's not with the same definition, giving it the same value as I did before. But as I think back to the decisions that I make and even the decisions that I make now, because it's ingrained in my subconscious, is that sometimes I elevate the cost of something more so than the value that it's going to provide to me.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
And I will tell myself that, “Oh, you can't do this, you can't afford this.” Well, actually affordability, there's some latitude to that, right? And I understand now that the cost is the price that someone else has assigned to that. And they have incorporated different factors to compute that dollar sign.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
Maybe if it's a business, their overhead, cost of production, the contractors involved, the time that they spend. But the value to me of that product may be just worth millions. And it may cost $5, it may cost $500. And now I'm able to appraise the value to me personally of said service or good and use that in my decision-making.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Awesome. Well, here's the plug, morejoymorewealth.com. That's where you can go if you're interested in hiring Brittne. Just by way of disclosure, we don't actually have a financial relationship. She's not a paid advertiser on this show, a true guest. I'm trying to get better this year at making sure I'm disclosing all those sorts of relationships.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
It's interesting, I was looking at your profile on there, your bio, whatever it was, and found out that your favorite flavor of ice cream is honey and lavender. Where do you buy honey and lavender ice cream? That is not on the shelves of my store here in Utah, I'm positive.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
Not at all. When I was in Atlanta, I enjoy running. And we actually did the 5K together at the conference. And one day in Atlanta I was running by and I have a sweet tooth. I ran by this ice cream parlor Queen of Creams. And I tried the lavender and honey, and it was fabulous. It was just enough sweetness, but it was also very mature.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
You sound like a wine specialist. You're going to an ice cream tasting or something here.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
The reason why I said that it was very mature is because I've had other honey and lavender flavors, and I'm not going to offer the name of the company that I don't like. But it seems more like fruity pebbles. Saturday mornings, of course, get a big bowl, big spoon, dive into some fruity pebbles, but that's the expectation that you know you're just going to get diabetes in the bowl in that one instance.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
But this one, it's perfect. And unfortunately, we don't live in Atlanta anymore, but Salt & Straw is a company where you can order literally, I think it's like 12 pints of ice cream at once. And my husband surprised me two years ago with a big box. I'm like, “What is this big box downstairs?” Couldn't carry it up. What is this? It's a little chilly.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
And he finally gets home. He brings the box up. And I opened it up and it had lavender and honey and it had so many other flavors and it is absolutely delightful. I love ice cream. I'm consuming less sweets after Easter and going on a fast for lent. But definitely, if you haven't tried it, you should definitely try it.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Yeah. It sounds interesting. I will watch for it because now that I've heard how good it is, I got to check it out. Well, we want to cover two topics today. The first one is generational wealth, the second one's going to be kids and money.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
But let's start with generational wealth. And I want to hear what that means to you because I hear some people using this word and all they mean when they use it is really rich. What does generational wealth mean to you?

Dr. Brittne Halford:
When I think about generational wealth, it really has three components. One, it does have the financial assets, so being maybe not really rich, but having something to pass down. And also financial acumen and wellness.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
The reason why I include the wellness is because in my work as a physician, in my work as a money coach, and as a mother, when we have not tapped into our emotional well-being, our social well-being, our physical health, our spiritual health, and also the financial health, that we most likely will use our money to fulfil those unmet needs.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
And so, it's imperative that we teach our children how to nurture themselves holistically so that they actually don't use and consume the money in a way that is non-productive. The financial assets and the financial acumen go hand-in-hand. If you pass down all of those really rich assets to your child who has no idea how to manage them, then they're going to squander and not be a good steward over that money.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
I read a statistic that 70% of wealth is actually lost in the first generation and 90% the generation thereafter. And personally, what I'm building today, I want my children to continue to carry on. That's the legacy. That is the purpose of me exchanging time and energy, increasing my financial acumen so that I can build options for them and for the generations that come.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
It's interesting, I've seen those statistics as well that 70% goes away very quickly and 90% within a couple of generations. And by the fourth generation, it's basically gone. And part of that's because it gets divided among multiple heirs, but part of it is it's just really hard to pass on the work ethic and the knowledge base from the generation that acquired the wealth to these later generations. And I think that's really the trick.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
So, I wonder how we're supposed to measure success at passing on generational wealth. If most of the time 70% is lost in one generation, if you can get your next generation to maintain 80% of that wealth, is that a win? How should this be measured?

Dr. Brittne Halford:
The measurement is in the definition of what is a successful transference of wealth depends on the individual. It depends on the goals. And as I mentioned, my whole desire for passing on and building wealth is to provide my children options that they can choose to live where they desire, choose to consume organic foods or not, or eat at McDonald's or go to a fancy restaurant.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
And so, I think when you're thinking about generational wealth and the perpetuity of that, it's really focused in on what are your values, what are the things that you desire for your children? And that is your own individual definition of success.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
For me personally, when we designed our estate planning, our legacy plan, we actually mentioned some guidelines on how to utilize the money. And when we are thinking about our children and what matters most to us, because our goal is that yes, they're going to develop into their own persons, to have their own passions and their own desires, but there are certain core family values that we want them to carry on as well. And we wrote those down specifically in our legacy plan.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
One of them is that we want them to be good stewards of their money. We want them to have charitable giving. And so, we actually have outlined that starting at middle school, we want them to attend some type of financial course or have some type of financial curriculum on an annual basis to build up that financial acumen.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
And then from there, it's that we want them to give. Giving is very important. It helps to build your overall sense of community and your satisfaction. And so, that is a tenant in which we want that to be carried down.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
And so, if they use their money, if we pass along whatever amount of money, I don't know, $5 million, we'll see. We pass that down to them. And if they choose to give away half of that, at least it still is in alignment with what our family values are, what the core values are.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
And if they are giving into charity, to something that is meaningful and is going to impact the world in a positive direction, then if there's no money at the end of that to pass down to their great-grandchildren, then I think that that's okay because they still made the most of the finances that they had.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Yeah, it sounds like you view it, at least as much passing on values as passing on money. You're talking about your family views on money and how it should be used and this kind of steward mentality. And I find that's awesome. I think that's pretty cool and very refreshing because I think a lot of people aren't thinking that way. They're thinking mostly about making their kids rich so they have it easier than they had it.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
Yeah.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Speaking of which, what I worry about, is there such a thing as too much generational wealth? Do you think that you can give them too much?

Dr. Brittne Halford:
Yeah, I think the risk or the concern that we all have is stifling their ambition, their desire to make meaning out of their purpose. I think in some regards, there can be too much. If you give them everything that they are not able to develop themselves into responsible human beings.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
And so, how we've outlined it in our plan is for their college education that we would pay for whatever the average amount is for the state school in the state that they're currently residing in. And upon graduation, then we'll pay off the rest.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
Because, of course, we want to give them options. We want to give them opportunities that we ourselves did not have. And so, at each phase of their life, as they matriculate to graduate school, as they go on to get married and purchase their first home, we haven't outlined as far as how much we will actually cover of that expense.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
So, we don't cover everything. That gives them something still to work for, that gives them some reason to understand how money actually works. Because when you think about financial literacy, it actually has two components. It has the knowledge, but it also has the utilization, the application.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
And we know from our medical training when we exited medical school, we had a lot of knowledge. We could tell you the coagulation cascade, but we could also not tell you how to reverse a coagulopathy or how to dose warfarin. So, both of them have to go hand-in-hand. And I think if you pass down so much money in the way that they get access to it right in the beginning, then you may lose that development, that maturity that is required for them to be good stewards of that money.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Yeah. I always find it interesting to talk to other people about their estate plan. These details like you're sharing here, ours is a little bit different, but obviously the same goal of trying to make their lives easier, pass on some wealth without ruining them.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
And so, we kind of split an inheritance into two pieces. They get a little tiny piece in their 20s that we call a 20s fund. It includes a 529 and basically matches on money they earned as teenagers in a Roth IRA and a UTMA account that's designed for them to use for whatever they want in their 20s, whether that's study abroad or a summer in Europe or a first house or a first car or a wedding or a mission or whatever. That's what that 20s fund is for.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
And then they don't get squat. If we get run over by a garbage truck tomorrow, they get nothing beyond that 20s fund until they're 40. And then the inheritance is split a third at 40, a third at 50, and a third at 60. Just because we want them to kind of develop their careers and develop their habits and develop who they are without knowing that they've got all this money.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
But the truth is there's going to be a pretty big inheritance out there for them eventually. But that was kind of how we set it up. Right or wrong, I have no idea. I think this is so individual you have to know your kids. And who knows, this may change as things go on. As we get to see what our kids do with that inheritance in their 20s, maybe what they get at 40 instead is an annuity or some sort of trust fund managing their money because they're terrible at it. I don't know. We'll find out.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
But the other thing I think about when I hear generational wealth is you read about this in the news or you see things about it and people are talking about it as being a bad thing. That this is keeping the rest of our society down somehow. That this is a problem. That wealth is staying in these families, that become wealthy and then it stays in the family. What's your response to that sort of criticism of this idea of generational wealth?

Dr. Brittne Halford:
Well, I think the criticism is focused at an individual, it’s not focused at the system. And when I reflect on just the wealth gap, in general, the wealth gap for Black Americans compared to White Americans.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
Recently I read a Bloomberg and CNBC article that in 2022 blacks had the greatest increase in their wealth. But when you look at that from a more granular perspective of what are the components of wealth in the black demographic and in the white demographic, what you saw is that blacks were less likely to invest in stocks, higher earning assets. And they had more pensions and also a little less real estate.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
And so, when you think about the perpetuity, this passing down of generational wealth, I think when you only direct those comments towards an individual, we forget about all of the systematic structures that have been put in place to enable that. And that's really where the focus needs to be if we want to create a world that's going to be more equitable.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
So, if my children have X amount of dollars because my husband and I worked really, really hard and we were good stewards and they're able to use that money to create better options for their family, then that's okay. As long as the environment in which we were able to create that wealth, the avenues, the expertise, the strategies that we were able to leverage in order to build on that, then there should be no shame, guilt, negative reflection on us or on my children to have received that.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
But I think we just need to start to direct attention towards some of the system problems that really are ingrained and weaved into the network of who we are as Americans and how structures and institutions operate and to make things a little bit more equitable so that everyone has a fair chance of building wealth.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Yeah. It's interesting we talk about these sorts of things so often about how bad it is that some people have this privilege and yet at the same time we all turn around and try to pass on just as much privilege as we can to our own kids. And it's a disconnect between what we want as an individual family and how that affects society at large. And I think that's something we're going to continue to struggle with, for some time for sure.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Think back, neither you nor I had a lot of wealth passed to us. We didn't receive a lot of generational wealth. How do you think your life would be different if you had received that? And is that a good thing or do you think that'd be a bad thing for you?

Dr. Brittne Halford:
I definitely think my life would be different. I can't say if it would be good or bad if I had inherited X amount of dollars. Even if it was just $200,000 I'd pay off my medical school education.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
But what I do know is that the fact that I did not have that generational wealth, it helped me to really hone into what matters most to me so that I can spend my money on that to create a life that is most fulfilling with what I have.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
It also was the impetus for me to gain this financial acumen that now I'm able to leverage to create a business, to pass onto my children to help to create wealth for our family. Like my nephew, my aunts, even my mom now. She's like, “Well, Brittne, what do you think about this with my retirement?” And so we're able to use that.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
I don't think that I would've had that because there wouldn't have been that pressure. There was a pressure. There was an urge, an actual need that I needed to fulfil. Therefore, information and execution, and refinement helped me to build that mastery.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
But if that impetus was not there, then I think I would still be okay, maybe with my money because I was raised to be frugal. But the expertise that I have and the understanding that I have, I don't know if it would be present.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Yeah. I often wonder how my life would be different as well. I certainly would've made some different decisions along the way, but it's hard for me to think that wouldn't have sapped a little bit of the hunger and the ambition that I had. And I worry about that a lot with my kids. We think about this a lot.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Speaking of kids, our second subject today is just teaching kids about money. And you mentioned earlier a number of the things your parents taught you about money as you were growing up. I don't know how old your kids are. My youngest is seven, my oldest is now out of the house. I've got an 18-year-old in college now. And so, it's a very different approach teaching kids about money. How old are your children?

Dr. Brittne Halford:
Two. Well, he'll be two May 6th and four and a half. So, still fairly young.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
What have you taught your kids so far about money at those tender young ages?

Dr. Brittne Halford:
I haven't taught Kevin Jr. We call him KJ. He hasn't learned anything about money yet. Well, maybe the word money. He knows the word money. That's about it.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Don't put it in his mouth. That's all he's learned so far.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
We have play money and he definitely has chewed and probably digested some fake money. With Brooke, what we have started to teach her is I give her $5 and, “Okay, Brooke, you can go to the grocery store, you can use this $5 to purchase whatever you want.” And I actually have a video recording of her looking at all the options and she still doesn't know just quite how to put the decimal point and incorporate that into her decision-making.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
But she knows the hierarchy of numbers that, okay, well, one is less than five. So if I have $5, then I could probably purchase this. So we go through that exercise when we're at the store and I let her purchase whatever she wants and to give the money to the cashier, to understand that there's an exchange here that's occurring. You're giving him money in exchange for this gum.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
And so, you're using the money to acquire something that you desire. And that money is just the tool that we're using for this exchange. She could be exchanging something else. I'm sure they do it all the time at school. Okay, I have pretzels. Well, I have apple slices, let's do this trade or whatever, and bartering.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
And I've also started to teach her about budgeting. So, one example is we're in the car to go to Trader Joe's and she absolutely loves flowers. So she's like, “Mommy, can I get flowers from Trader Joe's? – Sure, Brooke, but your budget is $5 and 99 cents, pretty tight budget. I understand.” And she's like, well mommy, “Why do I need a budget?” “Well, because Brooke, you want to make sure that you are using your money effectively and that you're allocating it to account for all of your needs and some of your desires.”

Dr. Brittne Halford:
And I said, “Well, do you know how we actually earn money? How mommy and daddy get money?” And she said, “Well, you go to work.” I said, “Well, that's one way. But you can also use a little bit of that earned income when we go to work and you can invest it and make your money grow. – Wow, okay, well, what type of investments? What is investments? What type of investments do I have?”

Dr. Brittne Halford:
And so, it starts that conversation, just introducing. She's not going to remember all of the conversation about budgeting and investments, but what she will start to learn is that that's going to be the foundation. Maybe she takes one word or one idea from that conversation, and we can continue to build upon it.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
I think whenever we're teaching kids about money, one, money has been this taboo topic that we never want to talk about. And I only discussed money with my mother and my father when it was that, these imaginary situations, you go to the store and you have certain amount so that you can make sure that the cashier is ringing you up appropriately so that you can retain the money that you have. Or understanding money from that my father did not have enough money to fund my college education, so therefore I needed to go and get scholarships. And that was the impetus for that.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
But I wish that the conversations would've been more involved at each stage of my life. So, we're starting now, Brooke is four, and we're going to continue to have these conversations so that she can understand what investments actually means, and that you actually don't have to just go to work to earn money. There are other ways.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
And I think that that is imperative when we think about allowing our children to choose a job that they desire, that they're passionate about, and that that's the opportunity there. It's your choice. You're not obligated to do this, to exchange your time and energy for that money because you don't have any other options afforded to you.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Sometimes we teach our kids what we can, and I've tried to teach my kids. One example is when we drive down the street and we pass businesses, we pass McDonald's, we pass Home Depot, and I explain to them that they actually own a little tiny chunk of each of these businesses in their 529s. And just get them thinking about an ownership mentality of that.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
But at a certain point, we have to give them control. Little by little, it's a bit of an apprenticeship, just like a residency would be. But we give them more and more control over money over the years. And sometimes they use money in a way that we don't approve of.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
What's the best thing to do when you see your children doing that? Whether they're children, whether they're teenagers, whether they're adults, and they're using money in a way that you don't really approve of? What do you think we should do?

Dr. Brittne Halford:
I think the first thing that we should do is we should take a deep breath. Understand that as parents, we're emotional beings and so we need to resolve whatever heightened emotion we have. And then we need to get curious.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
I think curiosity is really the key to resolving a lot of the issues that we have just generally abroad other domains, not just finances, but particularly when we're dealing with our finances.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
It's because we have this assumption that that individual, when they were using that money, that they have the same values, that they have the same understanding, and that they have the same perspective that you have. And I can guarantee that that is not at all true, especially when you're dealing with a four-year-old, or a 16-year-old. You all are not on the same page.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
But if we just approach them with punishment or trying to push them in a certain direction that we desire for them to go, is that we miss the opportunity to intervene, to teach them those meaningful lessons, to understand their thought processes, and to help to enhance that, to allow them for shared decision making so that we can make better patterns in the utilization of their money and create better habits.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
I'll give one example of how I've recently done this with my nephew, who's 19. My mother has had guardianship over him for I think about the past seven years. And whenever I come home because of who I am, Dr. Brittne, oh, she's a wealth coach, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, fill in the blanks. She's always like, “Well, Brittne, you need to talk to your nephew and tell him this.” So I say, “Okay, mom, I'm going to talk to him. I'll have a conversation with him.”

Dr. Brittne Halford:
And the topic this time was that he had a car, he purchased himself a car, but he did not want to purchase insurance for the car. That's a problem. She understands the risk to all of that. She has that knowledge, that expertise, that life experience. And so, I'm home, we're in the kitchen together, and I say, “Hey, Duck.” That's his nickname. Everyone has a nickname. “Hey, Duck. Your grandma told me that you didn't want to continue to pay for your car insurance.”

Dr. Brittne Halford:
And then I stopped because now this is the opportunity for him to fill in the gap. And he says, “Yeah, aunt Brittne. When I get my check, I only make X amount of money. And so if I were to pay the car insurance every month, then that means that I have no money left. And the car is actually not that valuable to me if I'm only going to work just to pay for the car insurance and I can't afford the gas, or I can't afford to go anywhere else.”

Dr. Brittne Halford:
And then he started to talk about the risk. “Well, the value of the car is this. If I get in the accident with the type of insurance that it is in Michigan and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, then the numbers really don't work out in my favor.”

Dr. Brittne Halford:
If I had approached that conversation with just like, “Well, you need insurance, Duck, you can't drive if you don't have car insurance,” then I would've missed out on all of the factors that he incorporated into that decision that he made. That I would've missed understanding where are the opportunities to fill knowledge gaps and to bring him closer to a better point of decision-making.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
And so after speaking with him, I say, “Okay, I get it. I understand. How about we meet halfway. You pay a month half of your insurance, I pay half of your insurance. Because my goal is to make sure that you're protected, that if you get into an accident, you're liable, whatever the case may be. That one, you are protected, but also your future is protected. Your future wealth and your assets and all of that also has that protection.”

Dr. Brittne Halford:
And so, that was just a really meaningful way for me to just get curious, for me to use open-ended conversation to intervene, to enhance, and to also let him know that I care about you. I care about what you desire. I care about what you value. And my whole goal is to make sure that you're protected, that you are acting responsibly. And from his computation, there was some of that that was factored into his decision-making, and he just needed me to help to bring him along.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
And I think if we don't do that with our children, if we don't allow them to participate in the decisions that they're making, and we're just punishing and pushing, then we miss that opportunity to really help them to be the good stewards, to develop that maturity that they need in order to manage their money effectively.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
That is some great advice because until you're in their shoes, you don't understand why they're doing that. And that applies obviously in the emergency department. I interact with people from all flavors of life. And I get parents coming in and junior's got a drug problem or something, and they want me to fix the drug problem in the ER in the next two hours or want me to lock him up into some sort of drug rehab, which of course, I don't have the power to do.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
And it's amazing when you go in and talk to the kid alone, what he's struggling with, what he wants, what his concerns are, how he sees the drug use, and really, it's eye-opening to try to bring them together in a way that's going to do the most good that is actually going to work.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Because even if I was able to lock him up for 72 hours because somehow he was also suicidal or something, that's not going to solve the drug problem by itself until he wants to change. So, it's great to get them involved and really understand where they're coming from. I think that's fantastic advice.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Well, our time is starting to get kind of short, but I wanted to give you a chance. 30,000 or 40,000 people are going to listen to this podcast by the time all is said and done. What have we not talked about today that you think these White Coat Investors should know?

Dr. Brittne Halford:
I know many of the White Coat Investors are very in-tune with their finances and they're focused on enhancing their financial literacy. But I also know that there is another component to our competence, and that is our confidence. And sometimes that confidence is not present.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
And when the confidence isn't there, you don't engage. You try to wait for the next moment, you wait for the opportunity. And what I would just encourage you is that if you're considering “How do I have these conversations with my children?” Just start today. Don't wait for the perfect moment. Don't wait until you have the confidence to actually have the right verbiage in order to ask.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
When you're thinking about generational wealth and creating that, the financial acumen is a critical piece, and that only occurs with our children making mistakes, with learning and actually practicing.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
I would encourage you to, wherever you are, whatever you're doing, if you have debt or not, if you make a lot of money, if you don't, whatever you have, then you can use that and leverage that to create a meaningful moment with your children and to have conversations. And that in itself, I think is going to guarantee as much as you can guarantee anything, the perpetuity of generational wealth, because those values will be instilled in your children from the beginning.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Well said. We've been talking to Dr. Brittne Halford of morejoymorewealth.com. Thank you so much for coming on the White Coat Investor podcast and sharing your wisdom with us.

Dr. Brittne Halford:
Thank you. Thank you. I'm so excited to be here. It was a great conversation.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
All right. I hope you enjoyed that interview. It's always great to have different people, different voices on the podcast. And Dr. Halford's had an awesome financial life up until this point and is also doing some great work in this space. So, it's a pleasure to promote her and what she's doing.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
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Dr. Jim Dahle:
Don't forget to nominate your favorite financial educator. Now, you got to do it by May 2nd. Go to whitecoatinvestor.com/educator to do that. You can get a free WCI online course. They can get $1,000 plus some recognition. So, please do it today. Don't forget. They'll really appreciate you for nominating them, I'm sure. That's also the same URLs where you get those slides I mentioned earlier in the podcast.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Thanks for those of you who've been leaving us five-star reviews. Those do help to spread the word about the podcast. Here's one from an interesting name. This is what they put in there “Tired parents of newborn twins.”

Dr. Jim Dahle:
They said, ““Excellent podcast! Pro Tip: You don’t have to be a doc to benefit! Dr. Dahle gives sound, well researched, important advice for anyone looking to maximize an investing strategy while not falling for the latest gimmick. He is incredibly consistent with suggestions and directions. His website is also a great source for details like examples with screenshots or walking through spreadsheet formulas. Very little is specific to doctors so don’t let the title keep you away!” Five stars.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Thanks for the kind review, but don't give away the secret. The personal finance is the same for everybody. At least 95% of it is. Maybe 99% is the same for all high earners, and only 1% is truly doctor specific. But that's okay.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
We'll talk about all kinds of financial problems here. Most of them honestly are first-world problems, but the real problems, if you've got them, then we're here to talk about them here to help you solve them, here to help you have the most financially successful life that you can. So as Dr. Halford said earlier, “You can build some generational wealth.”

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Keep your head up, shoulders back, you've got this. We're here to help. See you next time on the White Coat Investor podcast.

Disclaimer:
The hosts of the White Coat Investor podcast are not licensed accountants, attorneys, or financial advisors. This podcast is for your entertainment and information only. It should not be considered professional or personalized financial advice. You should consult the appropriate professional for specific advice relating to your situation.

Intro:
This is the White Coat Investor podcast Milestones to Millionaire – Celebrating stories of success along the journey to financial freedom.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
This is Milestones to Millionaire podcast number 115 – Emergency doc pays off student loans in less than three years.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
This episode is sponsored by InCrowd. Their 5 to 10 minute MicroSurveys use a mobile first approach, giving physicians an easy way to participate in paid research on diverse healthcare topics. Its medical research is designed for physician schedules.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Join now to be matched with studies that fit your areas of specialization at whitecoatinvestor.com/incrowd.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
All right, let's bring a guest on here. We have a great guest today who's going to talk about his most recent milestone. Let's bring him on. Our guest on the Milestones to Millionaire podcast today is Azhar. Welcome to the podcast.

Azhar:
Thanks for having me.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
All right. You have accomplished an impressive milestone in an impressive amount of time. So, congratulations to you and thank you so much for coming on here to inspire others to do the same. Tell us what you've done.

Azhar:
I graduated residency in 2020 and had a whole lot of debt. At that time about $250,000 in debt. And I just finished paying that off at the beginning of March of 2023.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Awesome. And I've got the exact amount here, $257,728 in 2007. That's what you had the day you walked out of residency?

Azhar:
Actually, that's the amount that was on my refinance at the end of 2020. So, that's why I was able to get the exact number.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Very cool. Very cool. So it was actually maybe even a little more than that. 30 months you knocked that out. That's pretty cool. What was your average income over that 30 months?

Azhar:
It's been pretty variable. With COVID we didn't work very much and so, my first year income was probably right around $250,000. And then the last two years, it's been closer to about $305,000, I think it was last year. And then I've got my wife who is a radiology nurse and she just went part-time. We had a kid. And so, she's bringing in about $45,000 a year now, and used to be closer to about $60,000.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Cool. What part of the country are you guys in?

Azhar:
We're in central Virginia, near the Appalachian Mountains.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Okay. So not too high of a cost of living area.

Azhar:
Right.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Tell me about this conversation you had with your wife. You're coming out of residency and you're like, “I know we're only making $250,000, $300,000, $350,000, but we're going to pay off these student loans in 30 months.” How'd that conversation go?

Azhar:
We've known each other since residency. And so this all started during residency. Our income around that time was less than $100,000 and she's been very supportive of my goal to just get rid of that debt. And so, we were able to kind of start with our financial journey during residency when we were making less, and that kind of allowed us to budget starting then. And then once we started to make a little bit more, we just kind of expanded the budget a little bit.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
How much did you expand it? We talk all the time about living like a resident and that the truth is most people expand a little bit. How much did you expand?

Azhar:
Yeah. During residency I lived with four other medical students for about a year and a half of residency. I met my wife and then we ultimately moved in together to a one bedroom apartment. And so, it was sort of an expensive part of town. And we were spending about $1,200 a month total there on kind of living. And now we've got this house that we bought right around the time that we moved for this job. And so, mortgage payments have gone up to about $2,000 per month. We don't live lavishly, but we're a little more comfortable now.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Yeah, definitely, increased it a little bit. Okay. Well, that's pretty cool. So, what was the secret? How'd you do this?

Azhar:
I think everyone has said the same thing. It really takes a plan. It takes budgeting. I've got an Excel sheet. My Excel sheet has like eight different pages to it. There's the day-to-day or the month to month budget. Then I have a year to year budget where I'm kind of looking forward to what I might need to be spending in future years for certain things. In terms of looking forward to buying a new house sometime in the future and seeing how that's going to fit in.

Azhar:
I've got all of my business account stuff so that I know that I'm spending the right amount using my business account every year and kind of using that to its full potential. I do budget pretty strictly. And that doesn't mean that we don't spend money when we want to. We're comfortable when we need to be, but we also understand that we've got goals and we try to make sure that we kind of stick to a little bit of a budget.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
So how's it feel to have those student loans gone?

Azhar:
It really feels amazing. Like other people have said, when you first click that button, it's really nothing. You just click a button and you go about your life, but then the next few weeks to be able to start to think about what you're going to be able to do with that.

Azhar:
Just to give an example, it kind of gives you a little bit more financial freedom in the sense that, we've got a kid, we've got a little two year old. He's about to be two in three months. And last night I worked until about 3:00 AM. Then we had a babysitter come for three hours this morning while my wife went to work. And just adding up how much that costs us on a yearly basis, that's about $4,000 a year, just for a few days a month.

Azhar:
And so, now we're going to have him start school in August. And that's going to be $10,000 a year, but that's going to give us a lot of flexibility. I might be able to do a little bit more flexible working. And so, in that sense, it's just really nice to have that freedom to try to get some flexibility in my life. Make some decisions where you might be paying a little bit more for certain things but in the long run, it's for everyone's kind of wellness.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Yeah. I figure you probably have freed up about $8,000 to $10,000 a month out of your budget, right?

Azhar:
That's exactly right. Yeah. My payments were about $4,600 when I refinanced. And then I would put in an extra about $5,000 to $6,000 a month. Yeah, I've definitely freed up a quite a good amount there.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Yeah. How much of that is going to be spent and how much of it is being invested?

Azhar:
I'm not very financially savvy. I listen to your podcast a lot, but I still don't fully understand retirement accounts and I'm still working on that. I've put a lot of that on the back burner to be able to become financially free. And so, these next few years I'm going to really try to figure out 401(k). I have a 401(k) and I'm pretty lucky my employer puts in 10% unmatched. So, I'm going to try to figure out what I can do with that to really maximize that.

Azhar:
I've always thought about real estate. My dad used to do some real estate. He didn't have a lot of success with it, so I've kind of put that on the back burner as well as something that's maybe a little bit more risky at times. But yeah, I think a lot of it is still going to be saved. We're going to try to get into a bigger house at some point, have some more kids, and that's kind of the plan. We're kind of still figuring out what we're going to do with it.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Cool. Well, the nice thing about student loans is it makes a really easy place to put your money in the beginning. If you got 6% of student loans, well, there's a 6% guaranteed interest rate. It's a super easy investment in that respect.

Azhar:
That's right.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Unfortunately, now things get a little more complicated for you and you'll have to figure out a little more. Some people say don't pay off debt, carry your student loans and try to invest in something with a higher return than your interest rate. You obviously chose not to do that. What was your reasoning behind why you wanted to pay off the student loans?

Azhar:
Yeah. I feel like it's a little bit of a prison that you're in when you've got student loan debt. I will say that if I had not refinanced, I probably would have gotten my debt down to a reasonable number and then I would've tried to do a little bit more of CDs and investments, some of the higher yield things, and then just be ready to pay those off.

Azhar:
I think it's important to realize that when you've got a lot of student loan debt, the amount of interest that you're giving away at first is a ton. And if you can get ahead of that, that's kind of the biggest thing I can say. If you can get ahead of that early, if you can get that down to a reasonable number, then you should be able to feel a little bit more free.

Azhar:
Yeah, I would say that's the main thing, is I understand people who want to put their money in other places. I would just recommend that you try to get it down to a reasonable number so you're not just giving away interest all the time.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Yeah. That freedom doesn't come all at once, does it? It comes gradually for sure.

Azhar:
And it increases each month.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Yeah. Okay. So, when you were coming out of residency, you had this goal, you had this plan. Did it turn out to be easier or harder than you thought it was going to be?

Azhar:
I knew it was going to be hard. You realize there are sacrifices that you're going to have to make, things that you're not going to be able to do, events you're not going to be able to attend. And I think as long as you realize ahead of time that that's how it's going to go, you can kind of stick to it, it ended up being sort of how I expected.

Azhar:
I think I paid it off a little quicker than I expected because like I said, when I was first making a little less during the COVID year, I didn't really know what was going to happen with my income, but then things really ramped back up unexpectedly. My goal was five years and I was able to do it in 30 months. And so, I was pretty excited about that.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
What advice do you have for someone that say they're an intern or a second year resident, they owe $250,000, $300,000, $350,000. They're worried about finances, they're worried about being able to pay that off. What advice do you have for them?

Azhar:
Stick to your goal. Every little thing matters. When you're budgeting, really pay attention to every little thing. For example, I changed my gym membership and it was a difference of going from $30 a month to I was able to find a gym that was $5 a month. It's got everything I need. Basketball in the mornings. That matters. Every little thing adds up.

Azhar:
So just stick to it. Don't fret over small things either. Every once in a while you're going to have a situation come up where you're going to have to spend a little money and it might be a little bit an emergency or just something urgent. Don't fret over it. Just kind of stick to your plan and you'll get there. It all works out in the end and it doesn't feel that way for a while, but once you get there, it feels really good.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Yeah. Awesome. Well, congratulations to you. Azhar, you have done something awesome. You have paid off your student loans in two and a half years. You're now free for the rest of your life. You're an emergency doc. You're making $20,000, $30,000, $40,000 a month and you now have it all to do whatever you want with. The part that doesn't go with the word taxes.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
The freedom you have here for early financial independence or to just have this fantastic life or to be able to be super generous are yours now. Congratulations to you on your success. Thank you so much for coming on and using your story to inspire others to do the same.

Azhar:
Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Our pleasure.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
I hope you enjoyed that interview as much as I did. It never gets old to see people taking their student loans in the corner and just crushing them with anvil. It works. If you throw $10,000 a month at your student loans, they will go away very quickly. I promise. The plan does work.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Now that means you've got to keep your lifestyle down enough that you can still do that. But that's very doable, right? You're used to living on a resident income or something similar to it. If you just keep doing that for a little bit longer, you can have medical school be paid for. In a lot of ways you're not done with medical school until you've paid for it.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
All right, I wanted to talk with you a little bit today about disability insurance and how to shop for it. I keep seeing questions on the WCI subreddit, in the WCI Facebook group, on the WCI forum and the title's almost always the same. “Is my disability insurance offer good?” And they post a screenshot or something of the offer they got from an agent and they're expecting somehow that the community is going to be able to look at that and say, “Oh yeah, that's good.”

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Well, that's not how you shop for disability insurance. You don't go talk to an agent, get an offer, post it on Reddit and ask if it's good. That's not the way you shop for it. The way you shop for it is you go to an independent agent, somebody that can sell you a policy from all of the big five or six companies and they help you to get the policy that's right for you.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
They're going to make about the same amount of commission no matter which policy you buy. Yes, they've got a conflict of interest, but that conflict of interest is mostly to get you to buy a bigger policy with more bells and whistles.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
And for the most part, the folks on our recommended list, they make plenty of money. They don't need to do that. They're in the education business mostly. They just want to teach you about these policy. They know you're going to buy one. They know they're going to make several thousand dollars from selling it to you. And it doesn't really make that big of a difference if they make $4,300 or $4,600 from their commission for selling it to you. They don't care that much. They just want you to have the right policy because then you're happy with it and you refer your friends to them.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
But there is a right policy for you. And it depends on your state, it depends on your specialty, it depends on your gender, it depends on your health status. It might depend on your dangerous hobbies as well.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
And so, the way you figure out which one's right for you is you look at all of them or have them do it for you and put them in front of you. They can educate you on the differences between the different policies. Maybe this one is a little more expensive, but look what it gives you that the other one doesn't. Is that worth another $30 a month to you? Those are the kind of questions you deal with going over these policies with them.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
And then together with them, now that you have the prices, now that you know what the policies include, you can make an educated decision of which one to buy. But there is no step in that program where you then go post it on the WCI forum and say, “Is my disability insurance offer any good?”

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Because we have no idea. We don't know your health status. We don't even know your age most of the time, don't know your gender, and might not even know what state you're in. And we don't have access to the software for each of those companies to tell you what the quote would be with principle.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
If all you did was go talk to Berkshire, all you did was go talk to the standard or whatever, chances are good that that's not the best policy for you. That it's one of the other four or five companies that has the best policy for you.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
And so, if you've only looked at one, if you've only talked to an agent for one, you probably have the wrong one. Maybe you lucked out and got the right one, but you probably have the wrong one because you went through the process wrong.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
So, that's how you buy disability insurance. And they'll talk to you about all the different riders. They're going to talk to you about a residual or partial disability rider. You should get that. That's the one that covers you if you're partially disabled or when you're coming back from disability insurance.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
If you are offered a cost of living rider and you're relatively young, you're in residency or you're just out of residency, you're in your 30s, maybe even your 40s, get that rider. Because if you get disabled, you want that benefit to go up each year as you go through your career. If you have bad inflation like 2022, you're not going to want that to happen very many years without an adjustment being made. If you're buying it at 56, it probably doesn't matter that much. This thing's only going to pay until you're 65 or 67 anyway.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
If you're buying it as a trainee, you're in residency or fellowship or whatever, you probably want a future purchase option rider of some kind that allows you to buy more insurance once you're making more, without having to re-qualify. Even if you take up scuba diving, even if you develop a heart murmur, even if you have diabetes, you want to be able to still buy more insurance because you probably can't afford as much as you want. They probably won't even sell you as much as you want as a trainee. So, if you're buying it during training, get a future purchase option.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
But the other riders, the retirement riders, the student loan riders, the catastrophic disability riders, those are kind of gimmicky. I would rather see you spend more money on a larger base benefit. Instead of getting $10,000 a month, maybe you get $12,500 a month instead of getting those riders for instance.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Now, how much do you need? You need enough to cover your living expenses and the way you want to live. Not just barely the way you can squeak by on discount groceries and never going on a trip, but the way you want to live. Plus enough to save for retirement. Because remember these things stop paying at age 65 or 67 or something. And if you haven't saved something for retirement along the way, you're going to be living on social security at that point.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
So, this is expensive stuff. You get sticker shock usually when you buy it because it costs money. 2 to 6% or so of the amount of income that you protect. But if you need it, you'll be really glad you have it. It's pretty darn useful in the event that you lose your most valuable possession, which is your ability to turn your time into money at a very high rate if you're like most White Coat Investors.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
And when you become financially independent, you can drop it and save those premiums. Let paying that premium every year motivate you to save a little bit more money to reach financial independence a little bit sooner.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
This episode is sponsored by InCrowd. Their 5 to 10 minute MicroSurveys use a mobile first approach, giving physicians an easy way to participate in paid research on diverse healthcare topics. Its medical research is designed for physician schedules.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Join now to be matched with studies that fit your areas of specialization at whitecoatinvestor.com/incrowd.

Dr. Jim Dahle:
Keep your head up, shoulders back, you've got this and we can help. We'll see you next time on the Milestone to Millionaire podcast.

Disclaimer:
The hosts of the White Coat Investor podcast are not licensed accountants, attorneys, or financial advisors. This podcast is for your entertainment and information only. It should not be considered professional or personalized financial advice. You should consult the appropriate professional for specific advice relating to your situation.